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VN Analysis

Answers of the Golden Witch

Umineko no Naku Koro ni is a special visual novel to me. Upon my third playthrough of the game, it has come to my realization that this is the most time I’ve ever spent on a single series, be it anime, manga or VNs. Through his writing, Ryukishi07 has changed many viewpoints I have on life itself, teaching me many new philosophical concepts and applying them in complex ways. What makes Umineko a masterpiece is the fact that people will walk out of the game, some having gained nothing but frustration, yet some having reached a new state of mind (such as myself). The amount of knowledge I’ve extracted from this series is second to no medium on this planet except the Bible, and I thought it’s doing the franchise a great demerit should I not at least attempt to share some of this knowledge with everyone else who have come out of the game empty-handed.

So here I present to you Blickwinkel’s new series of posts: Answers of the Golden Witch! This series will be presented in 11 parts. Naturally, as these posts are published, links will be activated for the articles below. I always prefer quality to speed at all times so I cannot guarantee when I will be finished with these.

  1. World: An introduction to essential mechanics and terminologies of Umineko.
  2. Tricks: Establishing a non-magical foundation before tackling the contents of the catbox.
  3. Legend: The discussion and solution to episode 1.
  4. Turn: The discussion and solution to episode 2.
  5. Banquet: The discussion and solution to episode 3.
  6. Alliance: The discussion and solution to episode 4.
  7. End: The possible solution and discussion of episode 5.
  8. Dawn: The possible solution and discussion of episode 6.
  9. Requiem: The discussion of episode 7.
  10. Twilight: The discussion of episode 8.
  11. Mystery: A discussion of theories regarding happened on Rokkenjima Prime between October 4~5, 1986.
  12. Magic: A discussion about Umineko’s structure, and explanations of the “magical” elements of Umineko.
  13. Truth: What is the Truth that R07 wanted us to find through Umineko?

As R07 once said in his interview with KEIYA, “With Umineko, I have created a way to reveal everything in a way that could not be copied and pasted.” I don’t believe that the entire truth of Umineko can be merely expressed with blog posts alone. If someone ask me why I’m a Christian, it’s not something I can explain with words. The same thing goes for the Truth of Umineko. It’s not something that any amount of blog posts can explain.

Of course, for people who have only watched the anime, or played through the visual novels without love, the truths that they seek are trivial and that kind of truth is actually able to be put down with words on a series of blog posts. If the truth you seek is merely “Who’s the culprit?” or “How were the crimes committed?”, this blog series is written for you!

What this blog series aims to do is to provide answers to you people who finished Umineko with the wrong perspective, and still hung on what’s inside the cat box. I will do my best to put you back on track by first providing you with the trivial truths you seek, and hopefully allow you to realize that Ryukishi07 had intended for you to reach a final Truth that is more beautiful than anything you’ve been searching for. Naturally, I cannot help you with discovery of this final Truth. You will have to play through the games again and find out for yourself – but that’s where the joy of the whole thing is. I’m here to hopefully make you find that joy again.

It’s true that many people question Ryukishi07′s worth as a writer, but speaking from my limited scope of literature, he is the greatest author I’ve ever had the pleasure of reading. It has been almost two years since I finished Umineko for the first time, and only now do I have enough confidence to begin writing a series of blog posts outlining my thoughts. In fact, I can’t deny that even now, I feel intimidated simply by the idea that I will have to translate my interpretations of his work into words. The Umineko community is the most intellectual gifted group of people I have ever met on the Internet, and in no way can I even begin to compare myself to many of them whom I know. Am I truly worthy of writing these interpretations of this beautiful tale? That’s for you, the reader, to decide.

Ever since I finished Umineko, I have been thinking about it every day. New theories are formed while old ones go. Naturally, I retain the right to edit these blog posts at any time should my theories change or I feel a better alternative is suggested. Like all pieces of great literature, the interpretations of the piece is endless, and I expect Umineko to keep my brain busy for many years, or decades to come.

To conclude this introductory post, I would like to leave you with some words from Ryukishi07 himself:

If I reveal the truth within my games, that is also rude towards the people who arrived at the truth. I also wanted to write a story where you can only get to the truth by repeatedly reading and  if you keep on thinking. The only guarantee I can give you is that if you read the thoughts of those who arrived at the truth now, even if you’re amongst the people who did not arrive at the truth can come closer to it.  I promise you that if you don’t stop thinking, then you will arrive at the one single truth.

Let’s get right into it! Note that this series will incorporate everything we have learned from episodes 1~8 in every post so look out for spoilers! If you haven’t played ALL EIGHT games you should not keep reading. This applies to ALL posts in this series, even if it’s only the solution to one specific episode.

Welcome to the Answers of the Golden Witch.

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About ImperialX

Anime fan and tech guru.

Discussion

55 thoughts on “Answers of the Golden Witch

  1. This reminds me. I need to get back to finishing this series. If I recall correctly, I stopped after part four.

    Posted by Myst | April 5, 2012, 3:04 AM
  2. Argh, darn you red text of spoiler warning! This saddens me a little bit as I can’t follow your thoughts on it, but on the bright side, I have another VN I should start. But that’s what I said about Katawa Shoujo too! D:

    Posted by fEast91 | April 10, 2012, 3:54 AM
    • Katawa Shoujo is nice but certainly overrated. It’s only famous because /a/ made it. As a visual novel overall it presents nothing different…

      You should play Umineko. When I say it’s the best VN out there, I’m not joking. The art is certainly something you need to get used to but aside from that it has my highest recommendations.

      Posted by ImperialX | April 10, 2012, 3:57 AM
      • Well I don’t know a lot (last count: 1) about VNs, so either way, I’ll look forward to both. I just want to play Katawa Shoujo because it’s overrated. Wanted to see what’s the fuzz.

        Posted by fEast91 | April 10, 2012, 5:51 AM
  3. “If I reveal the truth within my games, that is also rude…..”
    You quote this from Ryukishi07. When does he say this? Is it from an interview? If so, please link me the source.

    Also, what is your opinion on the validity of these interviews?
    http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/5724.html
    http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/7562.html
    http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/7366.html
    http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/7134.html
    http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/6828.html
    http://ruriair.tumblr.com/post/4566345424/ryukishi-interview-with-keiya

    I’m planning on rereading the series and arriving to a truth. There are questions in the series that can never be answered, but there are some that I believe are answerable.

    ~R

    Posted by R. Dom. | May 2, 2012, 9:54 PM
    • Ryukishi07 mentions what I say in his latest interview with KEIYA, which took place after episode 8 has already been released for a while and KEIYA was putting finishing touches on his book (which contains the “truth” he discovered). Here is the Interview. It’s incredibly long, but it a very rewarding read. In fact, it’s a must-read for any Umineko fan. http://wp.me/pPqJQ-45

      With the Blue Truth, nothing in Umineko is unanswerable. All you really have to do is look carefully at the Red Statements, and most people who’s competent can probably arrive at a solution to every problem that R07 presents if they’re careful enough with their readings. I will be doing that with the first half of this series. Of course, whether this is satisfactory for you is another matter. One of the biggest emphasis of Umineko is that humans cannot use the Red Truth. Therefore you can never really prove what happened inside the catbox. Whether that is even important or not is another question, and if you start thinking about that you’re on your way to discovering R07′s final truth.

      As for my views on these interviews, they will most certainly be covered parts 11, 12 and 13. One thing that we must note is that Ryukishi07 is a god-tier troll as his writing skills are. The things he says are ambiguous as heck when they need to be, and yet he still gets his message across. The message he gets across in turn are interpreted differently depending on the readers.

      You can choose to take what R07 says at face-value, and it seems that the “truth” can mostly be obtained from just these interviews. However, if you read closely into what R07 says in each interview, you’ll see that the truth is not so simple after all.

      For one, ShKanonTrice seems to be confirmed by R07 in these interviews. But is that really the case? As Bernkastel said in EP8, EP7 was designed as the most confusing episode and meant to mislead many people into believing they have found the truth, when in fact they simply drifted further from it. The same thing can be applied to all the interviews here.

      There is no Red Truth in the human World after all.

      Posted by ImperialX | May 3, 2012, 1:11 AM
      • Are you one of these people who deny Shkanotrice?

        Posted by rt | May 3, 2012, 6:07 AM
        • If you believe in any single theory which explains all of Umineko, you’ve already fallen into R07′s trap and you won’t discover the truth.

          There are ways to weave a Blue Truth that explains every game without ever considering that Kanon and Shannon might be the same person. Of course, ShKanonTrice is also a solution that explains every game too, although you do have to make some outlandish assumptions about accomplices, but since nothing contradicts the Red Statements you can still go that way. In Umineko – Our Confessions you can see how ShKanonTrice pretty much can make anyone an accomplice.

          This series isn’t meant to be a massive discussion about theories. The AnimeSuki thread is fine for that. The purpose of this series is to encourage people who are incredibly confused upon finishing the series and have no idea what’s going on to join in on the discussion, and hopefully arrive at the truth. For that purpose I think ShKanonTrice is confusing and for the first 10 parts I don’t believe I’ll be using it to solve the games. I’ll mention it later in part 12 “Magic”.

          In a sentence, I think ShKanonTrice is too complicated as a solution, and isn’t as elegant as other solutions that don’t need to accept people ≠ personalities. As said, there are ways to solve every game even accepting that people = bodies, and Shannon ≠ Kanon. For a beginner, such a solution is a better way to get into the series.

          As I said there’s no real “solution” to Umineko because there isn’t enough evidence provided by R07, but again, that’s because the message R07 wants to deliver doesn’t involve you finding a “real solution”.

          Posted by ImperialX | May 3, 2012, 2:36 PM
  4. I don’t really see any problem with Shkanon. People≠personalities are not needed. Shkanon is fictional after all. And it’s a great part of the culprit’s motive, why everyone decided to deny it? Just why nobody wants to try understand the heart of the story and care only about solution to murders?
    There is a real solution. Everything in this game is solvable. All parts of the pazzle were already presented, even if they are scattered throughout the novel and it’s hard to collect them. Umineko is neither about events on Rokkenjima Prime, nor about murders, but about solving the riddle of the culprits heart. The novel just SCREAMS it. Why no one wants to notice it? Why?

    Posted by rt | May 4, 2012, 1:07 AM
  5. While I agree that there are many ways to come to a “single truth,” I also believe that there are many truths that can exist within each other. It has been stated many times in the series, especially in Episode 3, that there is a way for two truths to co-exist at the same time. So for a person to come up with many theories and arrive to arrive at a single truth is a bit presumptuous. R07 creates a story, a mystery, for us the readers to enjoy and come up with a truth. There is always a solution. It may or may not be a solution that we would have agreed upon, or even thought was too preposterous to actually be the truth, but it is a truth just the same. Hence the difficulty levels written in the episode descriptions. It was the same in Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni, a truth that was seemingly so far out there but it was a truth just the same.

    I do not agree that ShKanonTrice is too complicated. If you look at the history of the Ushiromiya family, dual personalities isn’t such a stretch that it’s not feasible. In fact, regardless of its eloquence or not, it works and thus Blue Truths regarding the ShKanonTrice theory checks out. There are far too many clues, evidence, and blatantly spoken words that lead one to this conclusion. Episode 6 is a HUGE hint in this regard. While stating that Blue Truths can be weaved so that Shannon and Kanon are not the same person is obvious in Episode 4 when Battler states that the parents all swallowed “Small Bombs” and Beatrice allowed for her own red truth to be cut through. I mean seriously, small bombs?

    I have not read Episode 7 yet. I refuse to until I can come up with a solid-base theory regarding Episodes 1 and 2 since they are not the forgeries that Hachijo Tohya did not write. They are more inclined to be the truth of what happened on Rokkenjima those two days. I’m currently putting together my theories and facing them against another fellow reader so that we can come up with the “truth” together or at least see if we came to the same conclusions.

    So while I will accept that ShKanonTrice can be written off with other theories weaved with the Blue Truth, I can not agree that utilizing this theory is a far less eloquent means to solving the mystery, nor is it a theory to be seen as a “beginner level” device.

    Happy hunting to those who are still working on putting the pieces together. If anyone has questions or concerns regarding the first twilight of both Episode 1 and 2, please feel free to email me or reply here. This is what this discussion board is for, is it not? Kihihihihihihihi!

    Posted by Pandora | May 4, 2012, 8:51 AM
    • In many interviews, R07 implies that there is a “single truth”. I’m not going to convince you, but look up R07′s interviews – though there are spoilers for Ep 7 and 8 in them, if you’re worried about that.

      Where does it say in Umineko, that Hachijo Tohya only wrote EP1 and 2. I don’t have the best memory, but I thought she wrote 1 to 6. If she only wrote EP 1 and 2, who wrote the rest?

      Posted by R. Dom. | May 4, 2012, 7:26 PM
      • Actually Hachijo Tohya only wrote 3-6. No one knows who wrote 1-2 since they were found in message bottles that drifted to shore. All we know is the author signed “Maria Ushiromiya” at the end.

        And yes, there is a single Truth.

        Posted by ImperialX | May 4, 2012, 8:31 PM
        • I have started reading episode 7 today since I have finished compiling my theories for the game that took place in Episode 1. I have been told I don’t need to apply the mystery theories to any of the other games so I haven’t. However, if requested, I can do so for the 2 – 4th episodes. I probably won’t do it for episodes 5 or 6 since Battler is not the detective in either of those and well, Erikia is freaking troll/b*tch/etc. I don’t care if she was “Poor Scrappy”‘ed.

          Posted by Pandora | May 11, 2012, 7:26 AM
        • I won’t be continuing this series of posts until June because my exams are killing me right now, but if you want to wait for my posts, you can see if you agree with me or not on the theories for the first four games.

          Depending on whether you believe in ShKanon the solutions can be different, but if ShKanon and Our Confessions are to be believed, games 1-4 only have single solutions.

          Posted by ImperialX | May 12, 2012, 12:26 AM
      • Unfortunately I don’t like spoiling myself so the only thing I can say is that until I read episodes 7 and 8 (which I won’t until I solve the mysteries of either Episode 1 or 2 or both) then the interviews will have to remain unknown to me for the time being. Many truths exist in my mind right now as I come up with my theories as to who the culprit is and how they committed the murders.

        Also, flub up on my part. I realized that I meant to say that: “I refuse to until I can come up with a solid-base theory regarding Episodes 1 and 2 since they are not the forgeries that Hachijo Tohya WROTE.” Minus the “did not” part in there and it makes sense because Tohya wrote 3-6.

        Again, while I have been told that there is a single truth, I have come up with various theories so far based on what clues I have been given in episodes 1-6. Note, again, that I have not read episodes 7 or 8 and will not do so until I have finished my theories and exchanged them with my friend for comparison. Anything regarding episodes 1-6, however, feel free to slam me with them. I’m sure we’re all familiar with at least the jossed theories and tropes up to episode 6, yes?

        Posted by Pandora | May 9, 2012, 11:03 AM
  6. Are you going to continue this, ImperialX? I’m interested.

    Posted by Wanderer | June 29, 2012, 3:33 AM
    • Definitely. Although if you’re familiar with this blog, you’d know new posts often take long period of time to construct due to me being unpredictably busy in real life. I’ve never dropped a project though and this is no exception.

      Posted by ImperialX | June 29, 2012, 7:19 AM
  7. Have you published any of the 11 parts, I can’t seem to find them, if not I look forward to read them

    Posted by Anonymous | August 7, 2012, 8:24 AM
  8. when it’s ready?

    Posted by Anonymous | September 8, 2012, 12:24 AM
  9. if the shkannontrice theory is true or not i dont know, i just dont see howw anyone can say it is 100% plausible. I saw this video that made some really good points (may contain spoilers :P)

    For example on the 2nd game beatrice said : (red truths) “The only masters keys are the ones each servant holds, one per person” on the 3rd game “There are five, one per servant” (referring to the masters keys) 4th game “among the 5 people in kyrie’s group, he was the first to die.”, this would mean that people = personalities otherwise yasu would have 2 keys witch is impossible, it contraditcs the red truth. And if we assume that people=personalities that also contraditcs the red truth “no more than 18 (later on 17) humans exist on this island”, because if people = personalities than there would be 19 people on the island (everybody else except kinzo + shannon (16th) + kannon(17th) + yasu(18th) + beatrice (19th)).

    So even if we asume that people=personalities , or people are not the same as personalities it still contradicts the red truth.

    another thing is that this theory doesnt explain why Erika died in the 6th game after the red truth “sorry , but even if you do join us- there are 17 humans.”. Why did she die because she lied in red? if that was true than why didn’t Battler died in the 4th game, when he tried to lie in red.

    Also there is another thing the interview between Keiya and R07, there are somethings that just doesnt add up. R07 said if battler touched shannon’s breast he would have realized that they are fake, but in the anime george touched and nothing weird happened he just blushed and moved on.

    Also “island” beato’s tatoo is on her right leg, while shannon’s tatoo is on her left leg

    And the last thing i would like to say is that in the 5th novel both kannon and shannon appeared before Erika, and she had the objective perspective.

    would anyone, who thinks that the shannon-kannon-beatrice theory is the single truth, care to explain this to me?

    Posted by i didn't reach at the final truth | October 7, 2012, 7:29 AM
    • I’ll try to explain everything with my own interpretations:

      —About Shkanontrice:

      There aren’t “personalities” in Umineko. They are called IDENTITIES. Kanon is a fictional character playacted by Shannon. Yasu (child) and Shannon (adult) are the same person. She is not crazy in any way, just a bit weird.

      Shannon (a really flatchested product of incest) disguised herself as a boy for years because of her gender issues. She wanted to experience both genders. Genji messed with the schedules so no one would notice anything.

      She took this farce too far and eventually got attached to her “Kanon” identity. Kanon also estabilished an awkward relationship with Jessica, so he couldn’t just disappear and hurt her feelings.

      Remember the scene where Yasu became Beatrice? That’s a metaphor for adulthood. When humans grow up, they stop thinking about childish things like magic, innocent pranks involving window locks, etc. All these impossible fantasies became “Beatrice”, and Shannon took the main role as a teenager/adult.

      Remember when Shannon transferred her love for Battler to Beatrice? Another metaphor. She is giving up about it and putting her love for Battler aside, in the realm of impossible things/magic. “Beatrice” is the part of herself who still believes in those miracles.

      —About Shannon and Kanon Prime:

      Shannon wasn’t a murderer. She made herself the hidden culprit in her message bottles, but she could never do these things in reality.

      Kanon never existed. The only time when people saw him was in Jessica’s school festival. She asked Shannon to help her with her inexistent boyfriend problem, so Shannon disguised herself as a boy called “Kanon” and pretended to be Jessica’s boyfriend.

      Remember that ugly black coat that Kanon was wearing during the festival? Yeah, it was needed to hide Shannon’s breasts. Did Shannon Prime have big breasts thanks to some hormone treatment (unlike the fictional and probably murderous Shannon from the forgeries)? It’s possible. Did Shannon Prime have small breasts (that still needed to be hidden during the festival)? Probably.

      So, the only people who ever witnessed Kanon were Jessica’s friends (whose school lives were probably ruined by Jessica’s death, by the way. They seemed to adore her…). Kanon never worked as a servant in Rokkenjima during many years. Shannon didn’t cosplay as him in the final family conference. No one in the family saw him or called his name.

      Shannon added Kanon as a character in her forgeries, because she felt pity for the lonely Jessica. In these stories, he was actually Shannon playacting as him with the help of Genji. The forgers who didn’t realize it, treated Kanon as a normal character in their forgeries. Hachijo Tohya realized the truth easily, since he didn’t remember Kanon at all.

      —About Shkanon in EP5:

      There are two possible explanations:

      1) The scene wasn’t narrated by Erika. We didn’t see that scene with Erika’s point of view, so Kanon and Shannon can be there. Seriously, it wasn’t narrated by her.

      2) Lambdadelta was trolling. She used an incompetent forgery as her game (remember that some forgers discovered Erika’s disappearance and added her as a “detective” in their forgeries, since they wanted a total stranger to be the main character instead of Battler, who could hide things. This is all explained in EP6, if I remember correctly). In that incompetent forgery that Lambda used as her game, Shannon and Kanon are treated as different people, because the writer didn’t know the truth about them.

      Also, remember how Virgilia described the 5th game while Bern and Lambda were playing. She said that they were playing with the pieces in a very disrespectful way. “If it was chess, they would be throwing the pieces at each other or scribbling on the gameboard”. That’s how she described their way of playing the game.

      —About the red at the end of EP6:

      Erika: “I’m the visitor, the 18th human in Rokkenjima”. Humans = bodies. 16 alive bodies (Kanon and Shannon share the same body) + two human corpses (Kinzo and Erika). 18 HUMANS.

      (This doesn’t mean that Erika was drowned at the shore during EP6. These reds refer to the real world, not to the forgeries.)

      Battler and Beato: “Sorry, but… Even if you join us-” “-there are 17 people”. 16 normal people, including Shannon. Kanon counts as a real person (he is treated as a real servant by everyone during years. Some are genuinely fooled, like Krauss, and some are lying to keep the illusion, like Genji). That makes 17 PEOPLE.

      (Of course, Erika and Kinzo aren’t people anymore. They are just inanimate corpses. And Beatrice doesn’t count either. She isn’t recognized as a real person by everyone, she is just a ghost story).

      —About delusional people

      I hate when people call Natsuhi, Ange or Maria “delusional” because they talk with a dead Kinzo, stakes or Sakutaro. Stop interpreting everything that way. Ange can’t see the stakes or Maria’s ghost in front of her, with her own eyes. She is just imagining things like every sane person does.

      Natsuhi doesn’t see Kinzo with her eyes, or talks with him. She is just remembering Kinzo while wasting some time inside the study. She needs to spend some time there to give the illusion that she is asking Kinzo to go out, so the family won’t suspect anything.

      And Maria can’t see Sakutaro walking or talking with her, she is just imagining everything and deluding herself like most little kids do (ok, she is too damn old to care so much about a stuffed animal’s feelings, but remember that she is highly autistic).

      I hope you like my interpretation :3

      Sorry for my English, it isn’t my first language.

      Posted by Nack410 | October 16, 2012, 6:36 AM
      • thank you for your reply. I know how hard english (my native language isnt english either).

        But i didn’t ask for a general explanation of the yasu theory.

        And you didnt answer any of my questions :

        For example on the 2nd
        game beatrice said : (red
        truths) “The only masters
        keys are the ones each
        servant holds, one per
        person” on the 3rd game
        “There are five, one per
        servant” (referring to the
        masters keys) 4th game
        “among the 5 people in
        kyrie’s group, he was the first
        to die.”, this would mean that
        people = personalities
        otherwise yasu would have 2
        keys witch is impossible, it
        contraditcs the red truth. And
        if we assume that
        people=personalities that
        also contraditcs the red truth
        “no more than 18 (later on
        17) humans exist on this
        island”, because if people =
        personalities than there
        would be 19 people on the
        island (everybody else except
        kinzo + shannon (16th) +
        kannon(17th) + yasu(18th) +
        beatrice (19th)).
        So even if we asume that
        people=personalities , or
        people are not the same as
        personalities it still
        contradicts the red truth.
        another thing is that this
        theory doesnt explain why
        Erika died in the 6th game
        after the red truth “sorry ,
        but even if you do join us-
        there are 17 humans.”. Why
        did she die because she lied
        in red? if that was true than
        why didn’t Battler died in the
        4th game, when he tried to
        lie in red.
        Also there is another thing
        the interview between Keiya
        and R07, there are
        somethings that just doesnt
        add up. R07 said if battler
        touched shannon’s breast he
        would have realized that they
        are fake, but in the anime
        george touched and nothing
        weird happened he just
        blushed and moved on.
        Also “island” beato’s tatoo is
        on her right leg, while
        shannon’s tatoo is on her left
        leg
        And the last thing i would like
        to say is that in the 5th novel
        both kannon and shannon
        appeared before Erika, and
        she had the objective
        perspective.”

        i hope somebody, who believes in the yasu theory, can answer what already answer, not just give a description of what the yasu theory says.

        :) no hate , only love i hope we can have a peacefull discussion of ideas.

        Posted by I didn't reach at the final truth | October 23, 2012, 1:55 AM
        • I’ll take a stab at explaining this all with the Yasu theory.

          For the first point, you’re right that ‘people’ must equate to ‘personalities’ in order to make up the key count. However, this doesn’t actually contradict the later red text because, as with many of the red text tricks in the series, it’s a form of wordplay. Note that they specifically say “no more than 18 /humans/ exist on this island”. Nowhere is it stated that ‘humans’ and ‘people’ necessarily refer to the same thing – if we take ‘humans’ to be ‘bodies that are not corpses when the game starts’ (i.e. are capable of participating on the game board) then it works out correctly.

          Erika’s death in the 6th game was, I believe, symbolic. This is all taking place in the Meta, after all, and Bern had explicitly told Erika she only got one more chance. It would be just like Bern to kill off Erika for disappointing her yet again.

          For the matter of Shannon’s breasts, there’s several angles we can take; 1) The anime is a somewhat inaccurate rendition of the series (see: numerous animation errors and cut content that make it almost useless for solving the mystery); 2) Battler, as a breast sommelier, is simply far more knowledgeable about what breasts are supposed to feel like. George admits that Battler was always more popular with the ladies – perhaps George had simply never felt a boob before and had no way of knowing that wasn’t how they should feel; 3) Given that Battler didn’t see George feeling up Shannon (as far as I can remember), this could be discarded as an illusion.

          The tattoo, I think, is artistic license, or possibly makeup if you want an in-universe explanation for how it could have happened. And finally, as to the 5th novel, I can’t remember the exact scene from this as it’s been far too long since I read through it. But had Erika declared the Detective’s Authority at that point, and did she see the two of them simultaneously? If one or the other of those isn’t true, then she could still have been mislead.

          Posted by Anonymous | November 13, 2012, 6:44 PM
        • As for Kanon and Shannon appearing in front of Erika, Remember that Lambdadelta screwed up the 5th game, as said by Virgilia. Of course, this mistake was done on purpose so the reader could figure out the gaps of the perfect murder events. In order to answer that problem, you might need to doubt Erika’s so-perfect objective perspective as of that moment, blame Lambdadelta, believe that Rosa is the culprit (Ok, this is a joke), or come up with, strictly speaking, an unrealistic theory to explain why that might have happened in terms of tricks and stuff of the sorts.

          I would choose the first option.

          Posted by Anonymous2 | November 16, 2012, 12:34 PM
  10. thanks for the reply, you made a really good case :) , but here are my counter arguments:

    1st counter-argument. regarding the 5th game

    ————————————————————-

    “As for Kanon and Shannon appearing in front of Erika, Remember that Lambdadelta screwed up the 5th game, as said by Virgilia. Of course, this mistake was done on purpose so the reader could figure out the gaps of the perfect murder events. In order to answer that problem, you might need to doubt Erika’s so-perfect objective perspective as of that moment, blame Lambdadelta, believe that Rosa is the culprit (Ok, this is a joke), or come up with, strictly speaking, an unrealistic theory to explain why that might have happened in terms of tricks and stuff of the sorts.”

    Red truth (source umineko wikia : http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth):

    pls remember :

    When I speak the truth, I will use red. (used by Beatrice)

    Everything I speak in red is the truth (used by beatrice)

    Detective’s authority. ……The detective has the right to inspect all crime scenes. Stand back, Ushiromiya (used by Erika)

    She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.

    Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.

    Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.

    (Parlor scene where Erika sees everyone including Shannon and kannon): “In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.”
    ———-

    by the red truths mentioned above confirm :

    Erika’s detective authourity.

    That the lambda din’t raise the body count to deceive the viewer

    Therefore whether lambda screwed with the game or not doesn’t change the fact that Erika saw both Shannon and kannon (with detective authority), thus proving that they are different people.

    Now my questions against your argument:

    Was it ever hinted that the viewer should doubt the detective authority ? because if i remember correctly it is also used to support the yasu theory (namely : battler never saw both kannon and shannon at the same time!)1)

    therefore i proclaim your argument violates Knox’s 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED…!!

    ————————————————————————————————————————
    ————————————————————————————————————————

    2) regarding Shannon’s boobs, natsuhi’s closed room in 2nd game and the anime and piece beato’s tatoo:

    A) the anime (http://darenome.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/ryukishi07-interview/):

    «Ryukishi: Yeah, I’ll bet. Many hints will appear in EP5 as well. When the pivotal answers come out in EP6 and EP7, I suggest that you replay starting from EP1 and enjoy how early on the foreshadowing begins. Like when you get a new key in an RPG, and return to the very first dungeon to get a treasure chest behind a door that you couldn’t open before(laughs). That’s an especially fun part of Umineko. Even now, there are many things you’ll understand if you go back to EP1. But there are still many treasure chests waiting in EP1 that can’t be opened yet. After playing EP5, EP6, and EP7, you might go back to EP1 and think “This is a huge clue” or “It’s almost obvious!”
    This story will be fun to read over again. The anime will start very soon, won’t it? People with certain suspicions might say “Ah!” and clap their hands at certain points in the anime.

    “Will people be able to enjoy ‘the fun of speculation’ in the anime and manga versions too?”

    Ryukishi: Of course. I have been supervising those very carefully. In Higurashi, there were some problems with presentation, and they were allowed to do as they pleased in certain areas. But this time, I have been checking very carefully to make sure there are ‘no misconceptions in the presentation’ this time, so I think people will be able to significantly enjoy speculation in those as well.

    Keiya: In that case, will people who only watch the anime be able to speculate about the series?

    Ryukishi: There is an overwhelming difference in the amount of information contained in an anime and the original work, so it will probably be best to play the original as far as ‘the number of hints’ is concerned. But as I just said, mysteries in pictures and mysteries in text focus on foreshadowing in very different ways, so things that you didn’t notice in the original might feel very out of place in the anime. Then when you return to the original and read the same scene again, you might suddenly feel that something is very suspicious in certain places…… The opposite holds true as well, since some places might not leave an impact when on screen, but the text would lead one to wonder “why is this part being described so thoroughly?” So it might be useful to see it through different mediums.

    “If you were to assign a difficult to the other formats, would you say that they’re easier or harder than the original?”»

    ———————————————————

    muhahahahaha this is a fantastic counter-argument, because the yasu theory relies almost completely on the interviews, so if you rejected this interview claiming its a deception by the author, one could argue that the final interview is also a deception *beato laugh*. kkk jokes aside i will now proceed.

    as you can see from the quote above the ryukishi actually encourages people to see the anime and the manga, and he guarantees that he personally supervised them.

    So by this we can establish that the anime isn’t screwed up, and that the art is also correct.

    ———————————————————————————————————————————————

    B) regarding Shannon’s boobs + a new contradiction :

    ———————————————————-
    1st game ” (3:15 – 3:34): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnnPcFs-Me8

    as you can see on this clip battler actually saw George touching Shannon’s breasts, so it isn’t an illusion

    ———————————————————————-

    Ryukishi said in his last interview with keiya (http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Answer_to_the_Golden_Witch) that Shannon was the only one who wasn’t pierced with a stake, thus proving she is the culprit. :

    —————————————————————————————

    “R: I thought, because you solved the riddle of the well as well, that you would get this trick without any problem.
    I especially wrote that she was “slumped over, face down, over the makeup cabinet”.
    And while the other two in the room were actually pierced by the stakes, Shannon was not.
    That is why you can imagine her being the last to die in that room, because there was nobody left to insert the stake into the gunwound.
    There was never a full inspection of that special room, so that means that the weapon was left within it.

    Link: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Answer_to_the_Golden_Witch ( this was taken from the “Number and Names chapter)”

    ————————————————-

    But as we can see in this clip Shannon is definitely pierced.

    scene context : Rosa gave Battler the key open Natsuhi’s closed room (which will confirmed in his solutions to be a perfect closed room) :

    (7:32 – 7:46): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peURLuLtJbw

    ————————————————————————————————————————————–
    ————————————————————————————————————————————–

    3) Erika’s death on the 6th game

    Before i elaborate on this point , i would to remind that people on meta world cannot die ,because they lied in red, and as we saw on ep 5 only if someones existence is denied can that person truly die.

    “Erika’s death in the 6th game was, I believe, symbolic. This is all taking place in the Meta, after all, and Bern had explicitly told Erika she only got one more chance. It would be just like Bern to kill off Erika for disappointing her yet again.”

    Bernkastel wasn’t in the chapel at time of erikas death (pls watch this clip : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBDgMd4iVVU&feature=relmfu)

    Also Erika revived her self , so that interpretation doesn’t really cover her death

    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

    4) the human and people gameplay

    So my original argument was :

    ” (red truths) “The only masters keys are the ones each servant holds, one per person” on the 3rd game

    “There are five, one per servant” (referring to the masters keys) 4th game

    “among the 5 people in kyrie’s group, he was the first to die.”,

    this would mean that people = personalities otherwise yasu would have 2 keys witch is impossible, it contradicts the red truth. And if we assume that people=personalities that also contradicts the red truth “no more than 18 (later on 17) humans exist on this island”, because if people = personalities than there
    would be 19 people on the island (everybody else except kinzo, + shannon (16th) + kannon(17th) + yasu(18th) + beatrice (19th)). So even if we asume that people=personalities , or people are not the same as personalities it still contradicts the red truth.”

    your argument :

    “For the first point, you’re right that ‘people’ must equate to ‘personalities’ in order to make up the key count. However, this doesn’t actually contradict the later red text because, as with many of the red text tricks in the series, it’s a form of wordplay. Note that they specifically say “no more than 18 /humans/ exist on this island”. Nowhere is it stated that ‘humans’ and ‘people’ necessarily refer to the same thing – if we take ‘humans’ to be ‘bodies that are not corpses when the game starts’ (i.e. are capable of participating on the game board) then it works out correctly.”

    ——————————————————————————————————–

    Red truth : “[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people–in other words, three bodies–went in or out. (6th game)

    Before now, I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island. (4th game)

    I will lower that by one for Kinzo!!(4th game)

    No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!(4th game)

    That excludes any 18th person.(4th game)

    In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!(4th game)

    I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

    [......Sorry, but...] Even if you do join us-

    There are 17 people.(6th game)

    (Parlor scene where Erika sees everyone including Shannon and kannon): “In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.”(6th game)

    ————————————————————————————

    As you can see from red truths above humans and people are interchangeable, therefore people=humans

    Questions regarding your argument :

    Was it ever hinted that the viewer that people =/= from humans ? I have shown above evidence that points otherwise
    therefore I proclaim your argument violates Knox’s 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED…!!

    —————————————————————————————-
    —————————————————————————————-

    So as i have said before can any believer in the yasu theory please solve the contradictions this theory presents? and please keep this a peaceful exchange of ideas , because i have seen on the internet some people violently cursing at each other, and i don’t think that’s what ryukishi intended for this game, i think it should be a great story where people have debates and try to come up with as many truths as possible (of course respecting the red truth).

    Posted by neyo32 | November 26, 2012, 5:14 AM
    • 1) EP5 parlor.

      Erika has a reliable perspective in EP5. However, we don’t get Erika’s perspective in EP5; we get Battler’s.

      2) Shannon’s breasts.

      Your own points go in circles: You used an interview with Ryukishi to establish that the anime is reliable and closely overseen, then you used the anime to disprove something Ryukishi said in an interview. You can’t have it both ways.

      Personally, I think Ryukishi simply exaggerated how closely he oversaw the anime. I think he oversaw some parts of it, but not others. In the end, the anime is not that reliable.

      And I completely, entirely disagree with the statement that “the yasu theory relies almost completely on the interviews”. ShKanon theory is mostly centered on the love duel and other THEMATIC hints.

      3) Erika’s death.

      Erika died because she lost the closed-room duel with Beatrice.

      4) Red and “people”

      Shannon and Kanon are both “people”. They simply time-share a body, never existing at the same time (when one exists as a “human”; the other can only exist as fantasy). That’s all there is to it.

      Posted by Wanderer | December 15, 2012, 12:47 AM
      • Once again you didn’t address all the issues. :\ why cant nobody give me straight answers. anyway… here is my counter-argument

        1) You obviously didn’t read the 5th novel because Erika confirms in red that she has the detective authority (it can be seen after the discovery of the victims of the 1st twilight)

        2) I’m sorry, but my argument is not a circular argument. A happens if someone try to begin with something he is trying to end up: ex : Monsters exist because it says so in story books Monsters wrote story books.

        What I actually did as prove that the author interviews are not reliable for like I demonstrated the author contradicts himself. Like i already demonstrated you Ryushiki must have lied at some point , and even yasu theory believers have to accept that, otherwise logic errors are created. And what i really meant by saying my argument is a great counter-argument is that if you accept that the author lied the yasu theory loses all basis, and if you font accept that the author lied the yasu theory gets destroy by the detective authority (+ the red truths).

        3) She was able to resurrect after losing the battle (you should really re-read the novels :P) .why did she die ? that is the issue if the red truth “there are only 17 people ” confirms the yasu theory shouldn’t erika be unharmed because there would be room for her to exist. Yet she died.

        4) you didn’t solve the human/person =/= personality issue that i mentioned a few posts ago :

        “For example on the 2nd game beatrice said : (red truths) “The only masters keys are the ones each servant holds, one per person” on the 3rd game “There are five, one per servant” (referring to the masters keys) 4th game “among the 5 people in kyrie’s group, he was the first to die.”, this would mean that people = personalities otherwise yasu would have 2 keys witch is impossible, it contraditcs the red truth. And if we assume that people=personalities that also contraditcs the red truth “no more than 18 (later on 17) humans exist on this island”, because if people = personalities than there would be 19 people on the island (everybody else except kinzo + shannon (16th) + kannon(17th) + yasu(18th) + beatrice (19th)).”

        Posted by neyo32 | December 16, 2012, 11:34 PM
        • Patiently waiting for a solution for all the contradictiions. :).

          Posted by neyo32 | December 16, 2012, 11:39 PM
        • 1) I can stand arrogance. I can stand ignorance. But when someone displays both at the same time, it REALLY peeves me. I never said Erika didn’t have detective authority. In EP5 she does. Obviously. Very obviously. Don’t act like I’m an idiot, especially when most of what you’re doing is just bringing up points you saw in KnownNoMore’s “Umineko Explained” video.

          And by the way “detective’s authority” isn’t what you think it is. Detective’s authority and the objective perspective that comes with being the detective are different things. Battler never had detective’s authority in all of EPs 1-4, but he was the detective and thus obligated to have an objective perspective for those episode. This is made explicitly clear in EP6 when Lambda and the others were comparing Battler’s experiences as the detective with Erika’s.

          Read what I said: “Erika has a reliable perspective in EP5.” HOWEVER, it’s a perspective WE never see because Battler, who had a perspective clearly established as UNRELIABLE in EP5, was the one who narrated that episode, not Erika.

          2) I didn’t mean that your argument was circular in the sense of the ‘circular reasoning’ logical fallacy, but rather that it proved things that undermined your own argument. Those are two different issues.

          “if you accept that the author lied the yasu theory loses all basis”

          I offered a simple explanation as to why there is such a discrepancy in what we heard in Ryukishi’s interviews, but you seemed to prefer to ignore it. If you want to, I’ll be happy to mutually drop the interviews from the discussion. Of course then that means you can’t use anything Ryukishi said in the interviews as a basis for the anime’s legitimacy as a source.

          3) You probably thought that “Congratulations on your resurrection” was referring to Erika. It wasn’t.

          4) My explanation (I call it ShKanon Replacement Theory- SRT for short) actually covers at least most of these.

          “The only masters keys are the ones each servant holds, one per person”
          —–I don’t blame you for this one. There’s a couple things going on translation-wise here. First, the word ‘person’ was added to make the sentence easier to understand in English, but it’s not there in the Japanese. Second, there’s ambiguity that was lost from the word translated as ‘holds’: It could also be translated as ‘keeps’ or ‘possesses’. And there’s no particular reason to suppose two people who time-share a body can’t have different possessions.

          “There are five, one per servant”
          —–The five servants don’t all have to be existing humans to have keys allocated to them.

          “Among the five people in Kyrie’s group, he was the first to die.
          —–This one is not at all a problem, but the explanation could get long. I’ll provide one if you request it.

          “no more than 18 (later on 17) humans exist on this island”
          —–In SRT Yasu always adds no more than 1 person to the count. She’s NOT multiple people, she just changes from one person to another.

          If you don’t understand ShKanon Replacement Theory, just say so. Ask questions.

          Posted by Wanderer | December 17, 2012, 3:25 AM
        • You said I’m ignorant and you said that I’m arrogant but this quotes shows who is the the ignorant (even after i asked for a peaceful discussion of ideas all the other members respected that but still you decided to insult me… oh well it’s my fault for trying to be peaceful on the internet nowadays) :

          “If you don’t understand ShKanon Replacement Theory, just say so. Ask questions.”

          “especially when most of what you’re doing is just bringing up points you saw in KnownNoMore’s “Umineko Explained”

          I clearly stated I’m my first post : “I saw this video that made some really good points” , but you decided to to insult me anyway. And if you had just read one of my posts you wouldn’t have made such a fool of yourself, because asking questions is what i have been doing since post number one… the whole point was for a shkannon believer to give a logical answer to all the contradictions, but it’s useless if you didn’t read my questions before this you probably won’t read them now.

          I mean are serious did you read any of my posts i have been asking for answers since post 1, but you still said : ” If you don’t understand ShKanon Replacement Theory, just say so. Ask questions.”…… “Ask questions.”…. (“O_O)

          1) could you please rewrite this point , it’s hard to distinguish when your insulting me and making false accusations , and your actual argument.

          2) actually you are just digging your self deeper on this point of my argument was to prove that the author was unreliable and even your explanation shows that the author can’t be reliable, and also your argument not only has no basis but also proves that the author is unreliable. But even thought i was clear you insulted me oh well.

          3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBDgMd4iVVU

          Zepar & Furfur: It isn’t. Not until the pair is separated by death.

          During the narration she is described as a loser.

          By this we can establish that after losing the closed room battle Erika didn’t die, she only died when her existence was denied by the red :

          [......Sorry, but...] Even if you do join us-

          There are 17 people.(6th game) (4:44)

          Your Blue truth regarding the body count : “—–In SRT Yasu always adds no more than 1 person to the count. She’s NOT multiple people, she just changes from one person to another.”

          Problem : once again i ask why did her existence get denied by that red truth, according to the yasu theory there were 16 people on the island so Erika should be the 17th human. Then why does she get killed by that red truth (Also instead of insulting me, try answering the problem please -.- ).

          4) please explain

          Posted by Anonymous | December 20, 2012, 8:35 AM
        • That anonymous is actually me i forgot to log in, sorry must be a server error.

          Question : your argument is based on a massive failure by the author and writers that cannot be proven isn’t that an it self an informal fallacy?

          Posted by Anonymous | December 20, 2012, 8:39 AM
        • I was rude. I was rude because I was mad at your comment that I didn’t read the 5th novel. You didn’t comprehend what I said and just assumed I was wrong. I didn’t like that.

          In other words, I was rude to you because you were rude to me. I’m not proud of my behavior, but I’m not sorry to you for it. Although I do apologize to the Blickwinkel community. I was not being mature.

          1)
          Erika has an objective perspective in EP5, but it doesn’t matter if she does since she’s not the story’s narrator. The narrator is Battler, so the lens through which we, the audience, experience the story is a subjective one. In other words:
          Erika’s perspective of the story = objective.
          The story presented to us = subjective.

          2)
          Arguing that the author is unreliable is a double-edged sword. It undermines any and all arguments about what the author says, not just mine.

          If all you’re saying is that the interviews are unreliable, fine. I don’t even use the interviews in my arguments, anyway. Shall we just drop it?

          3)
          OK, I see what you’re getting at. It is correct that they said the battle had already been resolved before those final lines (although I still don’t understand why you were saying Erika was “resurrected”).

          You said: “By this we can establish that after losing the closed room battle Erika didn’t die, she only died when her existence was denied by the red”

          But according to Eiserne Jungfrau, Erika was already dying to “conceptual denial syndrome” (see the video you posted, at around 0:35). Since the duel had nothing to do with her own existence, this shows that she can be wounded simply by her IDEAS being denied. I say that’s all that killed her in the end as well; it was just a complete denial of her way of thinking.

          4)
          (premise a)-One body can only be one existing person.
          (premise b)-Kanon and Shannon are both “people”.
          (premise c)-Shannon and Kanon both exist through the same body.
          ***(conclusion 1)-Kanon and Shannon do not exist at the same time.
          (premise d)-Kanon or Shannon can “die” without the death of the body.
          ***(conclusion 2)-Kanon and Shannon can only be counted as 1 living person, but they are still different people and can be counted as 2 separate dead people.

          As far as I know, this accounts for everything.

          Posted by Wanderer | December 23, 2012, 10:22 AM
  11. ImperialX, you give up?

    Posted by Anonymous | November 27, 2012, 9:18 AM
  12. I can’t wait for it ^^.

    ImperialX, do you keep up with all formats of umineko?

    Posted by neyo32 | December 14, 2012, 7:54 AM
  13. i can’t wait ~UUU

    Posted by neyo32 | December 16, 2012, 11:34 PM
  14. Lay out some chapters at least.

    Posted by Anonymous | January 28, 2013, 11:18 PM
  15. Your solution is Shkanontriche? Or something else?

    Posted by Anonymous | January 28, 2013, 11:20 PM
  16. @ Wanderer Sorry for the late response. I’ve been really busy XD

    ———————————————————-
    ———————————————————-
    ———————————————————-
    1) Regarding the red truth in the original VN.

    Original argument:
    “The only masters keys are the ones each servant holds, one per person”
    —–I don’t blame you for this one. There’s a couple things going on translation-wise here. First, the word ‘person’ was added to make the sentence easier to understand in English, but it’s not there in the Japanese. Second, there’s ambiguity that was lost from the word translated as ‘holds’: It could also be translated as ‘keeps’ or ‘possesses’. And there’s no particular reason to suppose two people who time-share a body can’t have different possessions.
    “There are five, one per servant”
    —–The five servants don’t all have to be existing humans to have keys allocated to them.
    “Among the five people in Kyrie’s group, he was the first to die.
    —–This one is not at all a problem, but the explanation could get long. I’ll provide one if you request it.
    “no more than 18 (later on 17) humans exist on this island”
    —–In SRT Yasu always adds no more than 1 person to the count. She’s NOT multiple people, she just changes from one person to another.

    ———————————————————-
    ———————————————————-

    Actually “people” is present in those red truths (人-people)
    Red truth
    2nd Game:
    [RED] “マスターキーは使用人たちがそれぞれ持つ一本のみ – The only master keys are the ones each servant holds, one per person.” [RED]
    3rd Game:

    [RED]“…15人は死亡 – The 15 people mentioned above are dead”[RED]
    [RED] 金蔵、源次、紗音、嘉音、郷田、熊沢の6人は死亡している!- 6 people: kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kannon, Gohda and Kumasawa are dead [RED]

    —————————-
    —————————-
    —————————-
    2)
    Original argument:

    “(premise a)-One body can only be one existing person.
    (premise b)-Kanon and Shannon are both “people”.
    (premise c)-Shannon and Kanon both exist through the same body.
    ***(conclusion 1)-Kanon and Shannon do not exist at the same time.
    (premise d)-Kanon or Shannon can “die” without the death of the body.
    ***(conclusion 2)-Kanon and Shannon can only be counted as 1 living person, but they are still different people and can be counted as 2 separate dead people.”

    2.1) your argument is invalid, in other words the conclusions you presented are not a necessary conclusion supported by the premises you presented. Ex:

    Conclusion 2 is not supported by premise d or any other premise.

    2.2) what about Eva-Beatrice on the 3rd game? If conclusion 2 is true shouldn’t Eva produce 2 dead bodies? Wouldn’t that raise the body count?

    2.3) your argument does not account for all of Yasu’s personalities. Please explain why 4 personalities are counted as 1 living person, but 2 dead people. When where we ever hinted that something so bizarre was ever possible?
    [RED Knox 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!! [RED]

    2.4) when where we hinted that a dead person with multiple personalities should be counted as more than one dead bodies?
    [RED] Knox 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!! [RED]
    2.5) when where we hinted that premise c is possible? Where we ever shown that method or is it just a Devil’s proof?
    [RED] Knox 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!! [RED]

    2.6) this is more of summary of 2.2), 2.3), 2.4), 2.5), 2.6), 2.7), 2.8),

    Can you provide any evidence for your argument?
    [RED] Knox 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!! [RED]
    ———————————————————
    ———————————————————
    ———————————————————
    3) Regarding Erika’s last moments in the 6th Game

    Original argument: “OK, I see what you’re getting at. It is correct that they said the battle had already been resolved before those final lines (although I still don’t understand why you were saying Erika was “resurrected”).
    You said: “By this we can establish that after losing the closed room battle Erika didn’t die, she only died when her existence was denied by the red”
    But according to Eiserne Jungfrau, Erika was already dying to “conceptual denial syndrome” (see the video you posted, at around 0:35). Since the duel had nothing to do with her own existence, this shows that she can be wounded simply by her IDEAS being denied. I say that’s all that killed her in the end as well; it was just a complete denial of her way of thinking.”
    ————————————————–
    ————————————————-
    3.1) “; it was just a complete denial of her way of thinking.”
    Let it be known that Erika’s final words were made in red.
    Red truth: [RED] The Red only tells the truth! [RED]
    And the Red truth cannot be denied, so that explanation doesn’t work.
    3.2) “Since the duel had nothing to do with her own existence, this shows that she can be wounded simply by her IDEAS being denied”
    Erika’s final words were not related to the closed room battle
    Red Truth: [RED] Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome!! [RED]
    [RED] I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima.[RED]
    3.3) Erika’s final words didn’t include reasoning if anything it was just one preposition.
    3.4) her last words referred to her existence in the game board, so did the red truth that killed her.
    ——————————————————
    ——————————————————
    ——————————————————
    4)
    Original argument: “Erika has an objective perspective in EP5, but it doesn’t matter if she does since she’s not the story’s narrator. The narrator is Battler, so the lens through which we, the audience, experience the story is a subjective one. In other words:
    Erika’s perspective of the story = objective.
    The story presented to us = subjective.”

    ————————————————————————————
    ————————————————————————————
    If I remember correctly they only confirmed that battler was in a disadvantage during the 5th game, because of his subjective view. And Erika would have to face the same handicap during this game.

    Posted by neyo32 | February 24, 2013, 1:12 AM
    • neyo32 challenged wanderer for a closed room blitz :D

      Posted by neyo32 | February 24, 2013, 2:47 AM
    • Re: 1
      “Actually “people” is present in those red truths (人-people)”

      Plural? I was only talking about that first red about the servants and their keys: “マスターキーは使用人たちがそれぞれ持つ一本のみ”. The others I never claimed to have translation issues.

      “使用人たち” means “servants”. Although the character 人 appears, it’s part of the word “servant”. The extra word “person” appearing in the translated sentence is completely an insert by Witch-Hunt. It’s a difficult sentence to convert into clear English without adding a recurrence of the word “servant” or a pronoun for it, so what Witch-Hunt decided was to use “person” as a kind of pronoun for “servant” (at the time Witch-hunt didn’t know that the exact definition of “person” would later become important). So…

      “The only master keys are the ones each servant holds, one per person.”
      would be for us more relevantly translated as…
      “The only master keys are the ones the servants possess, one for each of them.”

      I suppose there are still avenues you can continue to press, but I will wait to see what you say.

      Re: 2.1
      Despite the structure, I wasn’t trying to make a formal argument. i was just trying to make it more understandable. It seems I failed.

      Re: 2.2
      Neither Eva nor Eva-Beatrice died in EP3, so I’m not even entirely sure what your point is.

      My claim implies that there can be more “dead” people than corpses, but not the other way around. Also, I don’t equivocate bodies and people.

      Re; 2.3
      State A ===> Kanon inhabits the Yasu-body. Kanon exists as a person. Shannon and Beatrice do not inhabit the body. They are fantasy. Person count associated with Yasu: 1 Existing person, 0 dead people.

      Event AB ===> Kanon dies without his body dying. Shannon takes over the body.

      State B ===> Shannon inhabits the Yasu-body. Shannon exists as a person. Beatrice does not inhabit the body. She is fantasy. Kanon is dead regardless. Person count associated with Yasu: 1 Existing person, 1 dead person.

      Event BC ===> Shannon dies without her body dying. Beatrice takes over the body.

      State C ===> Beatrice inhabits the Yasu-body. Beatrice exists as a person. Kanon and Shannon are dead. Person count associated with Yasu: 1 existing person, 2 dead people.

      I’m simply saying that they can “die” without their body dying. “Dead”, but no corpse. Hinted by Kanon’s always-absent corpse.

      By the way, a fourth personality is never involved. Only anti-ShKanoners ever talk about this “fourth personality”. When ShKanoners refer to “Yasu”, they either mean “Beatrice before she became Beatrice” or “the conglomerate of personalities that is Kanon, Shannon, and Beatrice.”

      Re: 2.4)
      Not applicable. As mentioned earlier, I don’t equivocate people and bodies.

      Re: 2.5)
      It’s a matter of definition and interpretation. I’m not suggesting that the stories defy reality but that the meanings of some words in red statements don’t mean QUITE exactly what they commonly mean. Namely, the words “person” and “dead”. For example, you could just change “person” to “identity that commands a body” and “dead” to “will never exist again” and there is no realism problem whatsoever. I might also add that a person thinking by these definitions is not implausible, and that I think it’s how Beatrice thinks. Beatrice is not God. Her words and meanings are subjectively constructed by her own world-view.

      Re: 2.6)
      Did you sleep through the love duel, for one?

      It’s true that I do a lot of working backwards from ShKanon, but I don’t see what’s so wrong with that. There’s MOUNTAINS of thematic evidence for ShKanon- so much that it’s very reasonable to work deductively from ShKanon as a premise. All I’m showing is that ShKanon can be logically consistent, being as its supposed logical inconsistency is the only place it’s every really attacked.

      Re: 3.1)
      “[RED] The Red only tells the truth! [RED]”

      I find your blatant employment of circular logic amusing. It’s OK since I agree with the premise, but still, amusing.

      Re: 3.2,3.3,3.4)

      Actually, I’m beginning to think you’re right about this. But my conclusion is different.

      The real issue is that Erika said 18 in red and Battler said 17 in red. I don’t think this puts an advantage to either side, being as I’ve never seen a satisfactory account of it by anyone.
      — Some ShKanontricers just think that red is wtf-ever and Erika just plain lied. I don’t agree. I think there’s something to it.
      — Many Rosatricers say Erika “landed but died later”. I find idea to be extremely ad-hoc, and to require some really unfair use of the red (because it would mean that Battler’s red somehow refers to a different point in time than Erika’s)
      — I’ve considered the idea of the red truth reflecting the cat-box of the meta-narrative, and that Erika could say it since Kanon/Shannon coexistence was still possible until Battler confirmed they were 1 person with the next line. I’m not too sure about it, though.
      — Once I read an idea that in Erika’s line “18th person” should be best thought of as a “title” rather than a truthful description, kind of like when Beatrice says at one point [RED]I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice.[RED] Now, obviously witches don’t exist, so Beatrice’s line is not a fact, but more like a definition or title. I’ve always been kind of fond of this interpretation for Erika’s line, but it seems kinda… a bit random and too easy?

      OK, so thinking about what you’ve been saying, I’ve realized that your interpretation is not at all incompatible with ShKanon, and in fact fits a ShKanon version of the title theory extremely well. It would play out this way:

      Erika realizes she doesn’t belong on the game board- she realizes that her own identity is a contradiction. So, her final words “[RED] I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima.[RED]” are not a true statement of fact, but a true description of her identity. The interesting part here is that she expected the answer to be something as simple as “[RED] Nope, there are only 17[RED]“, but instead got a very surprising “[RED] Even if you did join us-[RED]” line before it.

      Suddenly every event and line of dialogue in that whole sequence makes perfect sense. I think we’ve solved it! :)

      4)
      Battler didn’t play for most of the 5th game. He just watched a replay. I think what you’re referring to was a discussion in the 6th game about how Battler was at a disadvantage as the player during the first 4 games compared to Erika in the 5th game, because Erika had detective’s authority and Battler didn’t.

      Posted by Wanderer | February 24, 2013, 7:15 PM
  17. Just wondering, how far’s the progress?

    Posted by SalaZin | March 7, 2013, 10:51 AM
  18. Interesting to see you’re still working on this since I checked last year.
    I’ve been re-reading with a friend who’d never been through Umineko before and its been a lot of fun thinking about all the tricks and metaphorical magic scenes, knowing the culprit and their motivations.

    We just got through the battle between “Virgilia” and “Beatrice” in EP 3 and I suddenly realized the scene could easily be re-interpreted as a chess game between the culprit and an accomplice to end the murders. With it being out for so long, I really had no idea where to compare these kinds of theories to.

    Looking forward to seeing your deductions, whenever they come out. : D

    Posted by Zane | March 19, 2013, 7:15 PM
  19. whoah this blog is wonderful i really like reading your articles.

    Keep up the good work! You know, lots of people are searching
    round for this info, you could aid them greatly.

    Posted by shooting targets for sale | May 12, 2013, 12:25 PM
    • Thank you very much.

      I am still working on this series. I am learning Japanese in the meantime because I need to play the games in the original language to fully understand some parts I was unsure about in the English translation.

      Posted by ImperialX | May 29, 2013, 3:16 AM
  20. I already know that the fact of Sayo having part of her name in Ushiromiya is her ‘secret meaning’…
    But what about Kanon’s/Yoshiya’s name ‘secret meaning’? Do you know anything?

    Posted by Tøny Hernandez | November 18, 2013, 9:56 PM

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